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>>My challenge of the day: anybody who is too dumb to find MSX warez is not worthy of MSX at all << Dit you realy own or owned the original sd snatchter back those days ?? (or even now ??) There were only a few who owned a original sd snatcher in europe but every msx veteran played this game back those days.

I bought my SD-Snatcher in 1990, for ~72 euros (new, only used for a magazine review) and still have it. At that time I owned Metal Gear and Usas too, together with several other Konami games (I was one of the first people in holland to buy Nemesis 3, it just came in ^_^), several other cartridge games (e.g. Bubble Bobble, Hydlide 3), many european disk-games, countless cassette games, and also recently imported Sorcerian and Xak - the Tower of Gazzel.

I believe my warez/original ratio was pretty good and it has only become better during the years by buying new games from Sunrise and other groups. (Note that buying 2nd hand original games does not profit anybody but the seller, which is why Sony is trying to make it illegal)

Right now, warez may be able to increase the MSX userbase somewhat, but they mostly attract emulator users. How many emulator users buy new games? It's only a VERY small fraction. In order for MSX to revive (or even survive!) it is not enough to have users that play old games. It is important MSX users buy new games and/or actively playing a role in the MSX scene.

My challenge of the day: Although warez can attract some nostalgic MSX'ers back to MSX, WWW warez sites attract mostly pirates.

It´s indeed better to read our newsarchive first. thanks.

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How many emulator users buy new games? It's only a VERY small fraction. In order for MSX to revive (or even survive!) it is not enough to have users that play old games. It is important MSX users buy new games and/or actively playing a role in the MSX scene.

Not all MSX'ers are capable of buying new products (let alone import them from Japan). And, let's be honest here, very few quality games are being written these days... For me, game quality seriously dropped after the 1998 Tilburg fair (with only Realms of Adventure reaching some kind acceptable quality...). But don't get me wrong here, I don't agree with software piracy. It just that almost everybody at one point in his "career" as MSX'er copied a game. Even if it's a single game, you are as guilty as all the others! There is no such thing as a original/copy-ratio. Copy = crime. And a single copy is as much crime as 100 copies. Without getting personal, GuyveR800, do you collect MP3 files? There is as much crime in copying an MP3 file as there is in copying a game. So let's not go saint here. Bottom line is, we've all copied. Whether it's an MSX game or an R.E.M MP3. We are all guilty here. But I for one, do not believe that emulators and ROM-sites are the bad guys here. In fact, if it wasn't for them, I would never have come back to the MSX. I know I'm guilty. But hey, who isn't?!

It was not my intention to 'play saint' here, I'm sorry you feel that way. Just read my thread about piracy to know I'm not. However, shaiwa asked me a question and I answered.
Also, I stand by my daily challenges. There are several other ways to get MSX games besides WWW warez sites.

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There is no such thing as a original/copy-ratio.

Ofcourse there is, it is the ratio of original games you own versus illegal games you own.

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Copy = crime. And a single copy is as much crime as 100 copies.

Ofcourse copy = crime, but say that last thing to any judge and he will say you are wrong.

Talking about MP3's, the RIAA and similar organisations only go after the 'big fish' that are out in the open, all the small-fry and the underground folk are left alone. The same counts for (MSX) warez. WWW sites just attract a lot of attention, and if you have the ambition to grow to a large site and still keep on warez, you WILL be in trouble.

And you can't say "if I get into legal issues the site will go down", because a company can just sue you and you'll be in heaps of financial trouble.

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It was not my intention to 'play saint' here, I'm sorry you feel that way. Just read my thread about piracy to know I'm not. However, shaiwa asked me a question and I answered. Also, I stand by my daily challenges. There are several other ways to get MSX games besides WWW warez sites. >>There is no such thing as a original/copy-ratio.<<Ofcourse there is, it is the ratio of original games you own versus illegal games you own. >>Copy = crime. And a single copy is as much crime as 100 copies. << Ofcourse copy = crime, but say that last thing to any judge and he will say you are wrong. Talking about MP3's, the RIAA and similar organisations only go after the 'big fish' that are out in the open, all the small-fry and the underground folk are left alone. The same counts for (MSX) warez. WWW sites just attract a lot of attention, and if you have the ambition to grow to a large site and still keep on warez, you WILL be in trouble. And you can't say "if I get into legal issues the site will go down", because a company can just sue you and you'll be in heaps of financial trouble.

Hmm, let me correct myself

There shouldn't be such thing as a original/copy-ratio.

You are totally right about the legal issues here, but I am talking morality... Legally, there are "big fish". Morally, every crime is a crime. If once in your live you copied a game, you are guilty of crime. You do NOT have the right to play that game. I know this sounds very harsh, but is the truth!

You got SD Snatcher original !! in Europe !!

We're not worthy oh GuyveR800 !! (waynes world naturaly)

Offcourse we are no saints, it was not my intention to say you where.... but back then most of us did not have the originals because you could not get them anymore.
Just talking about my personal experience, because of emulators and warez
i got hooked again to the msx scene and buy old & new msx software/hardware.

But you are probably right with your challenge.

(still jealous GuyveR800 to your SD scc)

Oh, and BTW: what about remakes? -I've got a friend that's remaking Road Fighter (the same guy that did the remake of Maze of the Galious). I intended to make a news note for MRC frontpage but I beguin to doubt about it. Remaking is also a copyright infriction.

shaiwa, you are a fine example of the positive influence warez can have (and I haven't denied it)

And there are numerous SD-Snatchers in europe. Not at the time I bought mine, but in the years later a lot of them were imported. And today, with eBay it happens even more often.

I was really lucky to be able to buy SD-Snatcher back then and also bought a Sanyo 70FD2 MSX2+ with it. It was at a clubday of the local PTC (Philips Homecomputer Club) and someone had a MSX turboR imported from Japan running Fray! So ofcourse I had to upgrade from my MSX2 to a next generation (actually I sold a 8280 to be able to get the 2+)
It was so funny, I remember the day well... I had read in a newspaper there would be a show/fair or something where they would show a turboR in action, but it was pretty far away and on exactly the same day as the local MSX meeting. So you can imagine surprised I was to see a turboR in my own town ^_^

Ofcourse EGG is only available to Japanese people, so it is not entirely unlogical for us to acquire what we can't get otherwise (in a legal way, by paying) by other means. This however doesn't make it legal, and that's what this thread is about.

Remember that there are serious MSX-revival efforts in progress, in particular in Japan (amongst others EGG), and those will if successful probably spread to Europe aswell. Sure, we don't have those here yet, and we don't have an assurance that will be the case in the future, but the fact is that you're putting this software on an internet-site, which can also be accessed by Japanese. Thus you are hurting commercial efforts towards MSX with your site.

Think of this: by Dutch law, making a copy isn't illegal. The one providing you with that copy however, is. This is kind of the same situation. If I download something, it isn't particularly illegal, and especially if it is not available locally it can be justified. However providing people with the means to do so is an entirely different matter.

Sure I do have copies, and I find it nonsense aswell to have to purchase or not have them at all, if they are not available to me. I also don't mind sending someone a diskimage or rom image of a game they're looking for, provided it can't still be acquired in a legal manner, but setting up a site with 400+ visitors a day... please no :/. There are plenty of other things you can make a site about, and you already had pretty cool ideas like a resource center of information about as much games as possible (this sounds just as cool as the MSX cheats database idea, it could even be that!), why not focus more on those, and tell people to find their ROMs elsewhere?

And íf you must put warez on your site, at least keep a close eye on the MSX-revival efforts and what is available through Egg and similar initiatives, so that you can take the stuff available on a commercial basis (including in Japan-only) off your site.

~Grauw

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Oh, and BTW: what about remakes? -I've got a friend that's remaking Road Fighter (the same guy that did the remake of Maze of the Galious). I intended to make a news note for MRC frontpage but I beguin to doubt about it. Remaking is also a copyright infriction.

Yup !
As I already explained in some previous thread on this forum, I contacted konami about a year ago, because I wanted to do a remake of the Maze of Galious in 3D.
They stated very clearly that I could NOT use any artwork, content, music, storyline, ... of the original game !

Kris.

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Oh, and BTW: what about remakes? -I've got a friend that's remaking Road Fighter (the same guy that did the remake of Maze of the Galious). I intended to make a news note for MRC frontpage but I beguin to doubt about it. Remaking is also a copyright infriction.

It definitely is... But the MRC policy doesn't say anything about remakes
Seriously, the MSX scene does not have play police for the companies, we can only police ourselves. If someone wants to make a PC game that closely resembles or mimics a MSX game, MRC will report about it, afterall it is not illegal MSX software, it's just a PC game. The fact that it's illegal use of intellectual property does not concern the MSX scene. Afterall, The Maze of Galious and Road Fighter were created for NES too.

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Remember that there are serious MSX-revival efforts in progress, in particular in Japan (amongst others EGG), and those will if successful probably spread to Europe aswell. Sure, we don't have those here yet, and we don't have an assurance that will be the case in the future, but the fact is that you're putting this software on an internet-site, which can also be accessed by Japanese. Thus you are hurting commercial efforts towards MSX with your site.

It's even more direct than that. If old software is massively being copied somewhere, any commercial effort there will fail. So it won't happen.
By distributing illegal software you are effectively killing off the possibility of any future commercial success.

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Think of this: by Dutch law, making a copy isn't illegal. The one providing you with that copy however, is.

Sorry, but it's not that easy.
You are entitled to make a BACK-UP copy of something you buy. You (and only you) can only use either the back-up or the original at the same time. When you sell the original you have to destroy the back-up.

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If I download something, it isn't particularly illegal, and especially if it is not available locally it can be justified.

It is illegal and it can't be justified. You can't talk right what is crooked.

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Afterall, The Maze of Galious and Road Fighter were created for NES too.

For real ???
Damn, I had no idea
As a real MoG-fan, it is as of now my duty to buy a NES with MoG for NES

Kris.

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>>Think of this: by Dutch law, making a copy isn't illegal. The one providing you with that copy however, is.<< Sorry, but it's not that easy. You are entitled to make a BACK-UP copy of something you buy. You (and only you) can only use either the back-up or the original at the same time. When you sell the original you have to destroy the back-up.

Nope, it is not only limited to back-ups. You are allowed to make a copy of a product for personal use, *even though the original you copy it from is not yours*.

This includes for example borrowing sheet music at your local library and copying a number of pages of it. Even the entire work. This is also the reason why there's an additional tax on CD-recordables, cassette tapes and other recordable media, and since recently on DVD-recordables aswell, to somewhat compensate for the effects of this law.

Probably also the reason why single individuals are not prosecuted for downloading MP3's, for instance. After all, if it were possible, I bet the music industry would do a couple of raids on regular basis solely for the 'shock effect', to scare people off. However the only raid I heard of recently was one where a couple of students had set up their own peer to peer network for (local) distribution purposes only. That ofcourse clearly violates the copyright laws.


~Grauw

I'll give you a quote from the site of the Dutch foundation Thuiskopie ("home copy":

"Iedereen mag, voor strikt persoonlijk gebruik, een kopie maken van bijvoorbeeld een cd, een videoband of een televisieprogramma. Zolang als de kopie bestemd is voor eigen oefening, studie of gebruik, is het niet nodig om toestemming te vragen aan de rechthebbenden. De kopie moet wel door de gebruiker zelf zijn gemaakt. Verkopen of verhuren van de kopie mag niet zonder toestemming."

or, in English:

"Everyone is, for strictly personal use, allowed to make a copy of for example a cd, a videotape or a television program. As long as the copy is meant for personal practice, study or use, it isn't nessecary to request permission from the copyright holders. The copy however must be made by the user himself. Selling or hiring the copy is not allowed without permission."

As far as I know, similar laws are also present in other countries.


~Grauw