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What do you consider a big application?

Not the amount of RAM counts, but the size of the sourcecode. Let's say ... thousand lines is a lot for MSX-basic already.. Polka is about 3000 lines, the map-editor for ROA is about 4000 lines.. the 4m-editor is 1700 lines .. and these app aren't even that big I think. Tho, I didn't mention a number of include-files.. amongst them a texture-generator that's 1000 lines already.. So, when I make something *without* includefiles, I'd say a typical medium/small app is up to 8000 lines ... now, MSX-basic had usually more commands per line, let's say '4' ... that's 2000 lines then ... to compare with the old listings that had steps of 10 .. that's "20000" lines compared to the old listings from magazines.

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MSX-BASIC is a fully procedural language! The term ''procedural'' refers to the type of language, it doesn't mean that there must be procedures and functions like in Pascal.

That's simply nitpicking, you know what I'm referring to.. *ofcourse* (but believe me: everyone except you understood that already) I referred to 'functions and procedures'.

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But if that version of BASIC used only contains say 10% of the classical BASIC syntax and semantics, than, to my mind, it is ''Etikettenschwindel''.

So be it then.. I actually don't care what it's called .. Basic++, Basic-pro, Basic2005.

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Seems to me that you're the only one here speaking insultingly about the original BASIC!

I'm realistic.. MSX-Basic was very nice for the time being, but it's 2005 now..2006/2007 when the ball starts rolling for the 1cm. And looking back on the old MSX-Basic, knowing what I know *now*..: yes, it's outdated and sensible for chaos ..

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Data "but","maybe","BASIC","is","a","different","language","!"

data "then give me a definition of BASIC","link me to a website where the only official BASIC is defined, with all its features etc."

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Quote: BASIC is allowed to expand, develop, evolve, of course, but one should still be able to recognize the language as BASIC! ah! but then again, 'what' is BASIC? Is the definition defined somewhere? Many modern-BASIC users will argue they feel comfortable because it's all BASIC! ps. don't answer "Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code", I'm not referring to that ^_^

We should ask the one's who invented BASIC in the 50th of the last century! If they aren't still alive, there must be a documentation with the definition of the language. Maybe they talk about future extension there! We further should ask if it's allowed to freely redefine a language.

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Quote: And the new BASIC should be still backwards compatible, i.e. it should be possible to compile or run old programms on the new BASIC without to many modifications. If we're programming in some editor: Choose compiler in some menu: [ ] classic [x] new Then you can run old stuff, program oldskool-style, but also choose to work with a new style..

This would be a real good solution!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BASIC_programming_language

oh oh oh oh...!

 70 INPUT "Do you want more stars? "; A$
 80 IF LEN(A$) = 0 THEN GOTO 70

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It seemed to me that you talked about the developement of these languages, that they were procedural in the past

Yes...

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and maybe could get something different in the future.

No... That was not what I meant. WHat I did mean was that even if a programming language evolves - it's nature - as you call it - will not change.
A procedural language will remain a procedural language...

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If there's salt in the box, you aren't allowed to sell it labeled suggar!

I challenge you to start with a box of sugar and make that "evolve" into salt! Once you've managed that, please continue with lead and gold

SCREEN 13 ' -- what's with that 'Graphics 640,480,16' nonsense? Just state the screen mode, like we're used to
FONT 42 ' -- That's a nice anti-aliased 12x16 Tahoma type face. 

FOR t=0 TO 3 ' -- Yes, I do like my keywords CAPITALIZED in BASIC
  READ a$
  PRINT AT(0,t*20)  a$
NEXT

' -- Who needs double buffering for a simple prog like this? This BASIC is compiled/interpreted fast enough anyway ;)

WAITKEY()
END

DATA "Just", "my", "2cts", "-- Eric"

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Quote: If there's salt in the box, you aren't allowed to sell it labeled suggar! I challenge you to start with a box of sugar and make that "evolve" into salt! Once you've managed that, please continue with lead and gold

The challenge is on wolf_! Maybe we all should attend a Hogward's course on computer alchemy!

na, I'm not the one to develop a new basic here

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I'm realistic.. MSX-Basic was very nice for the time being, but it's 2005 now..2006/2007 when the ball starts rolling for the 1cm. And looking back on the old MSX-Basic, knowing what I know *now*..: yes, it's outdated and sensible for chaos ..

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It has turned out that BASIC's way of designing software is not the way we should proceed for many reasons. So, we could ask ourselves, why not totally discard BASIC and exclusivly using 'better' languages more appropriate to modern computers and software design methodologies? To my mind thats why one must experience the problems of one language to appreciate the benefits of another!

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It's the classic BASIC style which fascinates most, as was already mentioned by snout on July 7th, 13:19 in this thread.

We can have the one without leaving the other! In the new MSX, there must be the classical MSX-BASIC and there could be evolved BASICs if someone feels free to code them! This new BASICs could be made available beneath MSXDOS and should use the BIOS for compatibility, even if it slows down a little due to the interslot calls. If they should be available at the end of the system startup, replacing classical MSX-BASIC, it must be compatible to the classical BASIC we all are familiar to. A further possibility would be making available the BIOS ROM and the BASIC ROM in a cartridge slot. So, if one likes to have an advanced BASIC after startup, just replace the cartridge. Then, the BIOS ROM could be changed, too. If you need compatibility, just insert the classical ROM. It then must be rereleased on cartridge! Or there are many languages in a huge ROM and the new MSX has an extra switch to select one of them during startup. As there may be other systems on the OCM, too, e.g. NES, ZX81, ZX Spectrum, Oric, C64, there should be another switch to select the other system respectively. Note, with the OCM, you can invent your very own system, realising just your own thoughts a homecomputer system should be!

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Quote: Quote: If there's salt in the box, you aren't allowed to sell it labeled suggar! I challenge you to start with a box of sugar and make that "evolve" into salt! Once you've managed that, please continue with lead and gold The challenge is on wolf_!

Ow, chickening out, eh? No no no, you can't pass a challenge to someone else and pretend it just never happened!

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Maybe we all should attend a Hogward's course on computer alchemy!

LOL

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Quote: and maybe could get something different in the future. No... That was not what I meant. WHat I did mean was that even if a programming language evolves - it's nature - as you call it - will not change. A procedural language will remain a procedural language...

One should think so! But Turbo Pascal got object orientated in a higher version for PC. It still is procedural, too! C became object orientated in C++, but I don't know if it is still compatible with ordinary C.

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Quote: If there's salt in the box, you aren't allowed to sell it labeled suggar! I challenge you to start with a box of sugar and make that "evolve" into salt! Once you've managed that, please continue with lead and gold

You want to have lead and gold ''evolved'' to salt?

no, the other way around... he wants to start with sugar and through salt end-up with gold ...

uh..

nope .. that would be nice eh ^_^

start with lead, end-up with gold..

WELL let's keep it like Basic.

maybe they could modify it with the v9990 basic too

And while 'they' are at it, 'they' should add MWMLOAD/MWKLOAD and audio-BASIC and FM-BASIC too. And hope that 'they' don't forget the MIDI-BASIC as well.

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Quote: Data "but","maybe","BASIC","is","a","different","language","!" data "then give me a definition of BASIC","link me to a website where the only official BASIC is defined, with all its features etc."

TrueBASIC

The "source code" works on Classic DOS, Classic Mac, Microsoft Windows 9x and others ...
In the past there was even versions for Amiga OS!