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JJ, will you cut it out please? warau: don't worry tho. At this point in the developmenttraject only the gfx and the story changes, nothing else. To get back on the VK vs Usas comparison, take Usas then and replace the gfx with Northpole-style gfx, change Wit and Cles with a Polarbear and an Eskimo, replace the 4 moods with 4 seals.. what we're doing is more like that.

Wolf. I bit of ironic humour can be good.

But, this is horrible.

You can say tons of (for me, eye) silly things about games, development, etc ... and I can't talk with a bit of humour.

Your rights in this forum are highger?

And ... I don't understand this example from Usas ... if you replace gfx with Northpole-style... is a VK? (lol)

Sorry, is not USAS is a Ice cream. XD

Your example is very poor. I'm the only in this forum that see this things?

Hey! If you can accept my advice (in this moment, after of personal discussions is very complex, I know) : Please, humble. I bit of humble in your words.

You talk like you are the best designer, coder and musician of all of times in MSX. This way is wrong. You can have a bad fall ... and your fantastic world will be destroyed.

Hi DrByte.

Well. Your arguments are very pretty, but this world don't work with illusions or amateur people.

I'm very bad writing English (I know). According to your words, if I have illusion I can teach English ... No. This is an ERROR.

In Spain there is a good phrase to this: "Zapatero a tus zapatos", literal hmmm .... "shoes repairer to your shoes".

I want good games for my MSX. No bad games. If you make bad games, sorry, but I play with classical. Because I play with games, no with illusions.

And this is a big problem, because some people have talent for make good games. Yes, Wolf, was a good musician, please, compose music for new games, it's your best ability.

If all work use your best abilitys, the games will be good games. And all people and MSX, win.

Well, I don't think your words are anywhere near fun or humour.., they're bad taste at least :/
And about your other assumptions: they're wrong. The only thing you can accuse me for is for trying to stretch borders in order to create opportunities and new ways how to look towards game/demo-development.. is that so wrong? I actually think it's challanging.. equally challanging as to create an OS/GUI on an 8-bit system that mimics Windows, or to create a demo with flickering technique as to create tens of colors on MSX1, or to create a fullscreen/fullcolor videostreamer from CF/HD. Don't you like new ideas and concepts then?

The only thing I started in this thread (after starting it in the newspost) was to open a discussion about more RAM if it raises the chance of more games to be finished. I also told you that our game will run with 16kb RAM, NOT 32, NOT 64, but 16. Everything else was wrongly made up by you, and everytime you repeat these assumptions, they sound more irritating or insulting.

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It's very sad to see how people that make lots of things and give so many details about their work are criticized. It's more easy to be quiet and only speak to destroy other people's work. If you like to do things in a different way, then do them.

Whether I'm doing some work for the Dev is something you don't know.

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I will value the Dev games by the result, not by the name or by the way they have been done.

I value the games by the result as well!!! It's exactly what I meant.
The matter is that results are horrible!!

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And the analogy with the architecture, is poor. I prefer to see a game like a city. You can make several buildings, and with the time, adding new ones, or demolish and replace old ones.

I can't see the comparison here, sorry. The city is a plural entity. The game itself itsn't since it's a closed project. Maybe I'll accept the analogy with a city if the game is a MMORPG one. In that case, the game hasn't a very specific structure or timeline since it heavily depends on thousands of unforseeable parameters.

But we are talking about MSX1 and small and optimized games.

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About playing only classics is living in the past. They are good but not enough.

The past?????
Dude, all MSX machines are THE PAST!
I still like MSX cause I still like that kind of (old) games. It's the only reason I prefer to waste my time playing a MSX game instead a new generation PC or XBOX game.

But I don't feel the same with new MSX crappy games, so I'll continue playing old (but really good) games.

And aren't they enough?
Well, there are dozens or maybe hundreds of great MSX games I didn't pay attention before... Those games are there, waiting for me to discover them... ;-) I think I may have fun enough with my MSX until my last breathe.

I don't need new, bad games. If someone makes a really good MSX game, it will be welcome though.

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If really only interested in classics, what are you saying here where people are interested in new games?

I'm not specificly interested in classics. If someone makes a game I could enjoy, I'll be interested in it as well.
But, I'm afraid (almost) nobody is doing things in the way I like. Because of this I'm forced to take the classics back if I still want to have a fun time with my MSX.

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As said before, it's easier to destroy other people's work than making own work.

I only explained my opinion about how I think a MSX game should be created.
It's my opinion and if you don't like it, I'm sorry.

warau, your opinion is appreciated, and it has some fundamentals. But: just don't worry about our entry.

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Whether I'm doing some work for the Dev is something you don't know.

Of course, but you are not expossed to be criticized, No one can say if your way of working is amateur or professional.

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I value the games by the result as well!!! It's exactly what I meant. The matter is that results are horrible!!

Then dare to tell about what things you think are horrible, so people can do best next time.

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I can't see the comparison here, sorry. The city is a plural entity. The game itself itsn't since it's a closed project.

Yes, the analogy wasn't good. I will remember JJ words: "Zapatero a tus zapatos" (shoemaker at your shoes. Will Schumacher agree? )
So I will avoid more analogies.

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But we are talking about MSX1 and small and optimized games.

Not specially small, if you get the main discussion here.
But now it is changing from 'small' to 'smell'.

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The past????? Dude, all MSX machines are THE PAST!

Also my PC is THE PAST. I bought it two years ago.
My MSX is only a bit older than it. It runs, and heat less than the PC.

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But I don't feel the same with new MSX crappy games, so I'll continue playing old (but really good) games.

Well, I agree that if you dislike a game, don't play it. But there are also very BAD classic games. So, it would have been better to replace 'classic' by 'good'.

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And aren't they enough? Well, there are dozens or maybe hundreds of great MSX games I didn't pay attention before... Those games are there, waiting for me to discover them... ;-) I think I may have fun enough with my MSX until my last breathe.

If you think they are enough, why care about the new ones?
In the world, we are enough people, but each day more people born.
MSX is live, not dead.

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I don't need new, bad games. If someone makes a really good MSX game, it will be welcome though.

Don't forget that what you consider a good game is not exactly what other people consider a good game. So, no way of forbid making bad games, as always can be found a person like some of them.
Of course, MSX-Dev is a contest, and its games may be of different quality. The better ones will be more appreciated and played. The worse ones will be easily forgotten.
No one forces you to play a game you dislike.

And ... isn't MSX-Dev an amateur contest? So, why don't do in amateur way?
Have you played football at school? Hope you were really good !
Football is only for professional players. None child or amateur man should play football!

Note the touch of (amateur, of course) humour of this post, don't take it seriously!

I wrote:

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Have you played football at school? Hope you were really good ! Football is only for professional players. None child or amateur man should play football!

I must say 'sorry'. I promised to avoid analogies, but that was another.
I'm very ashamed.

Let's take a deep breath and calm down. We share a same interest, MSX, but we all have different views about it. And nothing would change this.

We are very close to insults
This topic should end here...

hm.. I actually like discussing the basics of this topic with viejo/mars/pitpan.

Hah, just to shake things up... what about a contest for turbo-R games?
There are so few of those, you can count them with your hand...

As for turbo-Rs, here in brazil we have at least 32 of them (a small "census" was made in 2003 on msxbr-l; but maybe there are much more, since a lot of people do not read or write that list...)

As for this "good game x bad game", "classic x new", there's absolutly *no* comparison. You cant compare a company that did games and earned money with it to a single (or maybe 3-4) developers doing something on their spare time *for fun*.

But back to the topic, I really like the idea of a split competition, one for MSX1 and other for MSX2...

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This style of 'thinking' is the main reason we haven't good amateur games, specially those games trying to emulate the Amiga or SNES with lots of unuseful stuff and horrible playability and gameplay. Ok, let's continue making games 'in the practical way', guys.... The next MSXDev is yours for sure. I'll continue playing classic games (^_^)

We have plenty of good amateur games, among the best are Akin and Coredump, both made 'as we go', by the way. Coredump didn't even have a script until half of the game was written. Not even the main sprite had been designed! It's a good way to design, unless you happen to work for Konami and are paid by the hour. Most of us don't work for Konami tho...

I don't like the term "amateur", because it has some negative meaning. It sounds like "it is not that bad if you consider that it is an amateur project". In a non-commercial community, like MSX is nowadays (for most of us ) I think that we should use the term "homebrew", "hobbyst", etc. Amateur is not the right tag - several groups have produced real jewels!

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what about a contest for turbo-R games?

Nooooo, no way, I want to keep my TR as an elite-only machine with so few games that I can count it with the fingers of one hand...

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We are very close to insults This topic should end here...

The discussion can continue with some respect for everybody's ideas.

The goal of this thread is not to prove that a specific way of developping a game is better than another one or that classic games are better than new games.

The utility of this thread is mainly to give some indications to the MSXdev' team for the future 2007 edition. More opinions are welcome if they contain positive suggestions or thinking elements.