New Brazilian law: package recipients passport number requirement?

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By ducasp

Hero (537)

ducasp's picture

21-01-2022, 23:34

SjaaQ wrote:

I have the same problem. I am trying to get a Brazilian CPF number for myself though. I am afraid the dutch 9 digit number won't be good enough for the Brazilian government. So far I passed "the first boss". Now it can take up to 10 days for a response to arrive.

Fun fact, if you communicate with their foreign CPF number department they still communicate in Portuguese. Where would I be without google translate.

It is not for Brazil government, but, for your country postal service / customs... Call them and ask what kind of identification they require to be on the paper describing the value and contents of the package related to you, the receiver of the shipment... If they say nothing other than your name and address, just provide any number, if they say some document, fone number, etc, provide that information.... A Brazilian cpf won't help if your country require a VAT ID and package will return it anyway if they require a VAT ID (arbitrary example). That's what I would do (but can't guarantee it will work, just think that you getting a Brazilian cpf is absolutely unnecessary...

By SjaaQ

Champion (266)

SjaaQ's picture

22-01-2022, 10:11

I dunno. I did not get any additional information from Technobytes.

The package was already returned twice and did not leave Brazil. I have ordered stuff from all over the world and I never needed to specify any number or VAT related information. I ordered 1000$+ of stuff in the US and our customs just added the import tax van VAT before delivery. I highly doubt it has anything to do with the postal service or customs in the Netherlands.

By Parn

Paladin (775)

Parn's picture

22-01-2022, 14:31

@SjaaQ, I won't try to guess what's exactly happening in your particular case, but in my experience there's a whole lot of rules involving international trade. Those are not in the purview of the Brazilian postal services, even if they try to make it easier for us. Asking for tax numbers is a way for the postal services cover their asses if a particular package is subject to specific import rules in other countries, and those rules can be changed without notice and the store clerk can't really guarantee it won't be the case, so they ask for it just in case.

By the way, they can't know for sure the given tax number is real and valid (and really they just ask for any kind of ID, but as you've seen in the OCDE documentation the TIN is the suggested ID for Netherlands). Tecnobytes could just fill the form with a random number and it would pass muster, but then it could bounce back when checked by the Dutch customs, or just create problems for you ("why this package was sent to you under a fake tax number?").

Internally it's quite common using our own tax numbers in purchases, it's just safer for everyone. No one is saying this is a problem with the Dutch postal services or customs. Brazilian customs, on the other side, is a whole other story. They can refuse a package if its paperwork is not 100% up to their expectations, even if the package doesn't demand such paperwork at low price points.

Lastly,

The Apeman wrote:

Does someone here know anything about this new law, have any experience with similar laws or have any way of assuring me Team Tecnobytes is still in control of their gmail account?

I'm sorry for not answering this before, but I can assure you Team Tecnobytes is still in control of their gmail account. I'm trying not to get too personal, but I can guarantee: if you haven't heard from them yet, it's because they're trying to the best of their abilities to provide you with meaningful, useful information in the next contact. I personally know they won't lie down and rest until any and all outstanding issues are solved. In all those decades in the MSX scene I've never seen any reason not to trust them.

EDIT: Full disclosure, I know them personally and we are friends, but what I said above has nothing to do with it. Even before we were friends I never had any reason not to trust them and they always had a superb reputation.

By Briqunullus

Champion (504)

Briqunullus's picture

22-01-2022, 18:24

You're absolutely right that international trade brings a lot of quirks. And every country tries and regulates it in its own way. These ways are rarely compatible.

The thing that Dutch people in the messages above are worried about however, is the TIN number. Our government appears to have chosen our social security number for this purpose. That number is very private, because it is tied to a lot of government services. In the wrong hands, that number opens the door to identity theft. That's why people are hesitant to put their number in the open on the outside of a package. Even more so if it's clearly marked as their identity number.

Luckily for me, my wife has a business tax id. That's a lot less vulnerable for identity theft and I would use that if I were to order at Tecnobytes.

By Parn

Paladin (775)

Parn's picture

23-01-2022, 09:56

That's very enlightening and interesting, thank you @Briqunullus. Of course we Brazilians have no way to know this. In domestic commercial packages it is quite common to have the invoice physically attached to the package and, as you can imagine, there's all sorts of personal information in that invoice, including our CPF, which is our tax number and pretty much everything someone ill intended needs for identity theft. The only protection is that they're folded in a way you can't see all that personal info and stored inside a sealed bag, so you can't access it unless you violate the package. You see, it can't actually prevent any violation, but if it happens we can know.

In domestic packages we have the option to use electronic invoices, and these are sent via e-mail, and of course are much less vulnerable, but there's no way to do that with international packages, and as you can imagine, those can go through a number of different jurisdictions, so it's inherently less safe. I know from personal experience that if a package is withheld at customs and opened for any reason (customs inspection, for example), it gets resealed with a tag or stamp indicated it was opened and who did it, but it's clear to me this isn't ideal.

Fortunately all the invoice needs is some form of recipient id (there's no fixed format since this number can be just about anything), hence the suggestion of the passport number to @SjaaQ. If you are uncomfortable about disclosing your social security number, you may also try the driver's license number. Just keep in mind this could have unforeseen consequences at the Dutch side of things.

By rogerio.belarmino

Expert (74)

rogerio.belarmino's picture

24-01-2022, 00:21

Dear Tecnobytes customers and supporters,

In our latest PowerGraph and AudioWave production batches (year 2021), we had a series of unforeseen and previously unseen problems. Here's a summary of what happened:

The first delay was while we waited for the arrival of electronic components: our supplier refunded part of our purchase, because they had raised the prices after our purchase and wouldn't send us our components unless we paid the difference.

The second delay was with the PCBs: some of them had errors and had to be returned.

The third delay was when I (Rogério Belarmino) got Covid. It took me 1 month to get better.

After all these delays we were finally able to start shipping the packages. To our surprise, some of the packages returned, without any explanation. We were puzzled, since this has never happened before. Of course, sometimes one package bounces back due to incorrect addressing, missing recipient or some mistake, but never so many packages. Anyway, we double checked everything and posted them again. Once more, some of them returned, again with no explanation whatsoever.

This ended up being quite an ordeal. We talked to a lot of people in the Postal Services, Federal Revenue and Customs, and no one would give us a clear answer about what could be wrong. The best we got was some educated guesses.

After some time, a third party managed to put is in touch with a consultant in international shipping inside the Postal Services. This person informed us we would need to generate an export invoice for each and every package. As you may imagine, this export invoice can be quite complicated, and it requires a different document for each country as recipient id for taxes purposes. In the case of most European countries this would be the Tax Identification Number, as you can see here (thanks to @aoineko for the info):

https://www.oecd.org/tax/automatic-exchange/crs-implementati...

All of this is new to us. We have been exporting our products since 2013 and this is the first time we had this kind of problem. Added to the previous delays, we understand why our customers can be impatient and worried about their purchases. Rest assured, we are doing everything in our reach to overcome these issues and we'll keep you informed to the best of our abilities.

Thank you all for your patience and your continued support.
The Tecnobytes Team

By Grauw

Ascended (10564)

Grauw's picture

24-01-2022, 00:27

That sucks! Strange that after so many years you are now getting these shipping issues. It’s quite a hassle for you guys!

By SjaaQ

Champion (266)

SjaaQ's picture

26-01-2022, 16:04

I also was able to obtain the Brazilian tax number for myself (CPF). But you already got that now, Rogerio.

By aoineko

Champion (405)

aoineko's picture

07-02-2022, 00:18

For information, I received my Powergraph Light Rev 2.
I had to pay 10 euros of tax, but I'm happy to finally have my V9990 cartridge. ^^

By SjaaQ

Champion (266)

SjaaQ's picture

07-02-2022, 15:49

I did not see any mail from Tecnobytes that it was resend. I am not sure if it is en-route or not.

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