TriloTracker beta thread.

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Van syn

Prophet (2106)

afbeelding van syn

04-10-2015, 12:12

I forgot to say I am having a lot of fun with TTFM, it is really a fantastic job Huey. (the reason I havent checked out the newest version /update of the regular TT yet).

Anyway I got a general msx music-making question: I mainly use emulators, and I notice the PSG sounds really loud compared to the "second" sound chip when I have both soundchips's emulator volume set to the same (100%). Is this comparable to real MSX? (I am obviously aware that each msx model has different balance values but I was basically just wondering if there is some general "average", like maybe in 90% of all MSX models the psg is louder than cartridge sound-in/build in FM)

For now I just use really low volume values for psg instruments like 6-8 while FM or SCC are around max. Is this good practice? Because I feel the pgs vs scc/fm balance slider should be used to finetune the balance on individual machines, am I correct on this?

Van Huey

Prophet (2687)

afbeelding van Huey

05-10-2015, 09:33

T4N3 wrote:

What happened to 9xy in V0.9.0? Crying

It should still be there.... Isn't it working?

Van Huey

Prophet (2687)

afbeelding van Huey

05-10-2015, 09:37

syn wrote:

Anyway I got a general msx music-making question: I mainly use emulators, and I notice the PSG sounds really loud compared to the "second" sound chip when I have both soundchips's emulator volume set to the same (100%). Is this comparable to real MSX? (I am obviously aware that each msx model has different balance values but I was basically just wondering if there is some general "average", like maybe in 90% of all MSX models the psg is louder than cartridge sound-in/build in FM)

I'm not really sure. I did never test this on real hardware. I think It's probably just as with SCC; Depends on the type of MSX.

syn wrote:

For now I just use really low volume values for psg instruments like 6-8 while FM or SCC are around max. Is this good practice? Because I feel the pgs vs scc/fm balance slider should be used to finetune the balance on individual machines, am I correct on this?

There is no real guide on this. But if you really want to be safe use the slider. It's safest as you can always lower the volume but never make it louder than your instruments.

Van T4N3

Rookie (21)

afbeelding van T4N3

05-10-2015, 14:05

Huey wrote:

It should still be there.... Isn't it working?

It's definitely not working on my side. Anyone else can confirm?

Van T4N3

Rookie (21)

afbeelding van T4N3

05-10-2015, 16:21

HWE (8xy/EEy) also seems to have a different behaviour. What was changed about that in the last version?

Van syn

Prophet (2106)

afbeelding van syn

10-10-2015, 19:29

I got some questions:

1. Regarding TTFM: Will there be a way to define custom drum combinations? I miss tom+hihat Big smile
2. General suggestion: Will you consider a function to change around the instrument number/order? Because since I just add instruments as I go, it would be nice to be able to sort psg and scc/fmpac instruments seperately, or group together drums or for example instruments that complement eachother (that I use in layer for a melody).
3. Bug: In the TTFM version you gave me (v 0.8.0) , I ran into a file corruption when I try to save certain files I saved (in top left corner something like *k appears when I save, and I get an error about corruption when I load them again). Is there a know error / or maybe already fixed in the latest version? Since I only made one partial ttfm song so far I dont have anything else lying around to test. At first I thought it may be filesize related (mine's about 22-23 KB) but I noticed some songs on the web are bigger)
4. Noob question: What does the speed equalization function do exactly? (what determines the speed difference?)

Van Huey

Prophet (2687)

afbeelding van Huey

11-10-2015, 08:14

syn wrote:

I got some questions:

1. Regarding TTFM: Will there be a way to define custom drum combinations? I miss tom+hihat Big smile

Yes. The current drum setup will make place for drum macro's. You will able to create drums in the same manner as instrument macro's.

Quote:

2. General suggestion: Will you consider a function to change around the instrument number/order? Because since I just add instruments as I go, it would be nice to be able to sort psg and scc/fmpac instruments seperately, or group together drums or for example instruments that complement each other (that I use in layer for a melody).

I'll put it on the wishlist for all versions. I guess you would also like to update the current pattern data with the new instrument numbers. Right?

Quote:

3. Bug: In the TTFM version you gave me (v 0.8.0) , I ran into a file corruption when I try to save certain files I saved (in top left corner something like *k appears when I save, and I get an error about corruption when I load them again). Is there a know error / or maybe already fixed in the latest version? Since I only made one partial ttfm song so far I dont have anything else lying around to test. At first I thought it may be filesize related (mine's about 22-23 KB) but I noticed some songs on the web are bigger)

I never had any issues. I'll add it to the bug list. Just a tip; Before each save the tracker will make a backup (*.tm_) of the old song.

Quote:

4. Noob question: What does the speed equalization function do exactly? (what determines the speed difference?)

It will (try) to sync the music on 60hz to 50hz by skipping each 6th interrupt. This to have same music speed for games on 50hz and 60hz.

Van syn

Prophet (2106)

afbeelding van syn

11-10-2015, 17:56

Huey wrote:
syn wrote:

I got some questions:

1. Regarding TTFM: Will there be a way to define custom drum combinations? I miss tom+hihat Big smile

Yes. The current drum setup will make place for drum macro's. You will able to create drums in the same manner as instrument macro's.

Good to hear Big smile

Quote:
Quote:

2. General suggestion: Will you consider a function to change around the instrument number/order? Because since I just add instruments as I go, it would be nice to be able to sort psg and scc/fmpac instruments seperately, or group together drums or for example instruments that complement each other (that I use in layer for a melody).

I'll put it on the wishlist for all versions. I guess you would also like to update the current pattern data with the new instrument numbers. Right?

Yes update pattern data would be nice to have too.

Quote:
Quote:

3. Bug: In the TTFM version you gave me (v 0.8.0) , I ran into a file corruption when I try to save certain files I saved (in top left corner something like *k appears when I save, and I get an error about corruption when I load them again). Is there a know error / or maybe already fixed in the latest version? Since I only made one partial ttfm song so far I dont have anything else lying around to test. At first I thought it may be filesize related (mine's about 22-23 KB) but I noticed some songs on the web are bigger)

I never had any issues. I'll add it to the bug list. Just a tip; Before each save the tracker will make a backup (*.tm_) of the old song.

Let me know when you start to try debug it, I can assist if you want (sending you save states/corrupted files etc or just downright try to figure out where it goes wrong).

Btw it was just a K in the topleft, not *K (in case it matters for the bugreport Big smile )

Quote:
Quote:

4. Noob question: What does the speed equalization function do exactly? (what determines the speed difference?)

It will (try) to sync the music on 60hz to 50hz by skipping each 6th interrupt. This to have same music speed for games on 50hz and 60hz.

Aha! If I understand correctly, you mean the replayer adds a 1 frame pause (basically stops reading notes but the current notes continue to play) once every 6th interrupt if I enabled the equalization? And this happens when am using 60hz, but not at 50hz?

Remember a long time ago I reported a problem/bug with sounds that are played on same tone/note sounding different? (I mailed you about it, also mentioned this somewhere in this topic, it was a PSG bassdrum that didnt sounded right every few times it is played). This extra added pause may be the cause. Because I think it will lengthen the bassdrum.

I assume in the macro editor each "step" represents 1 interrupt length? Since the mbm_conv bassdrum is just a 1 interrupt long note in the instrument/macro editor, this would mean in worst case it will suddenly be 2 steps/interrupts aka twice as long, if the instruments macros aren't updated during the skipped interrupt.

I just tested it with the mbm_conv bassdrum in the latest TT version, with equalization off and the problem seems to be almost gone compared to when equalization is on.

Maybe you could fix this by letting the instrument macros continue doing their work during the skipped interrupts (from both the song tempo and speed equalization)? I have no clue if this is a lot of work though, or whether the macros already continue to "run" during the skipped interrupts in the current version of TT/TTFM

Another thing, could this interrupt skip be useful to create more possible song tempo settings? You could have say a user definable value of x additional skips divided evenly in amongst 60 or 50 interrupts (or maybe 30/25 interrupts if that works out better?).

[edited post a bit because I misunderstood some things]

Van Huey

Prophet (2687)

afbeelding van Huey

12-10-2015, 09:55

syn wrote:

Aha! If I understand correctly, you mean the replayer adds a 1 frame pause (basically stops reading notes but the current notes continue to play) once every 6th interrupt if I enabled the equalization? And this happens when am using 60hz, but not at 50hz?

Correct

Quote:

Remember a long time ago I reported a problem/bug with sounds that are played on same tone/note sounding different? (I mailed you about it, also mentioned this somewhere in this topic, it was a PSG bassdrum that didnt sounded right every few times it is played). This extra added pause may be the cause. Because I think it will lengthen the bassdrum.

I assume in the macro editor each "step" represents 1 interrupt length? Since the mbm_conv bassdrum is just a 1 interrupt long note in the instrument/macro editor, this would mean in worst case it will suddenly be 2 steps/interrupts aka twice as long, if the instruments macros aren't updated during the skipped interrupt.

That could be the problem.

Quote:

I just tested it with the mbm_conv bassdrum in the latest TT version, with equalization off and the problem seems to be almost gone compared to when equalization is on.

Maybe you could fix this by letting the instrument macros continue doing their work during the skipped interrupts (from both the song tempo and speed equalization)? I have no clue if this is a lot of work though, or whether the macros already continue to "run" during the skipped interrupts in the current version of TT/TTFM

That would fix some of the instruments effects you mention. But it would introduce other strange effects for effects like tone slides (going too far).

Quote:

Another thing, could this interrupt skip be useful to create more possible song tempo settings? You could have say a user definable value of x additional skips divided evenly in amongst 60 or 50 interrupts (or maybe 30/25 interrupts if that works out better?).
[edited post a bit because I misunderstood some things]

What kind of other speed settings do you need apart from the current speeds?

Van syn

Prophet (2106)

afbeelding van syn

12-10-2015, 15:19

Huey wrote:

That would fix some of the instruments effects you mention. But it would introduce other strange effects for effects like tone slides (going too far).

I meant the macro's in instrument editor. If you continue each instrument's macro even during skipped interrupts, isnt this how the instrument was supposed to sound anyway? (because like in my bassdrum story, the instrument will suddenly sound longer if it was supposed to end during the skipped interrupt)

For effects in a pattern's effect channel like tone slides the macro wouldn't matter too much I think? It's not as if you are putting an effect in a certain place in a pattern "because I know at this point the instrument macros macro will be at its 10th step and it will be messed up if this effect occurs at macro step 11.". You put the effect there because you want the slide to occure at that exact moment (in time) in the song at that exact pattern step, and I didn't mean that should be changed.

Quote:

What kind of other speed settings do you need apart from the current speeds?

Well I wasn't talking about me per se, it was more me trying to help out with what seem to be a general request.

For me my problem was with speed equalization on, 60hz and speed 12 my song sounds too slow, and too fast at speed 11. With speed equalization off at 60hz and speed 14 it sounded a lot better. I tested it at 50hz and it sounded just a tiny bit slower at speed 12 with speed eq off.

The problem with disabling speed equalization is obviously compatibility between 50/60 hz. My first thought was that you use the song speed setting as "master" tempo when speed eq is off while in 60hz mode, and if the replayer/tracker is set to 50hz it will will add 2 to the speed (so a song that was intended for 60hz with speed eq off, will sound just a little slower than at 60hz but not as slow as just at the same tempo). But I dont know how this will work out in reality.

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